Comments on: Virgin Births, Freethinking, And Adaptation http://rationalphilosophy.net/index.php/main/virgin-births-freethinking-and-adaptation.html Using philosophy, reason and logic in life, to find meaning, purpose and peace. Sat, 19 May 2012 09:38:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Martin Walker http://rationalphilosophy.net/index.php/main/virgin-births-freethinking-and-adaptation.html#comment-29 Martin Walker Thu, 28 Feb 2008 02:54:39 +0000 http://rationalphilosophy.net/main/virgin-births-freethinking-and-adaptation/#comment-29 Hello again, Valerie. This is a very interesting exchange. It is indeed true that beliefs are individual and depend to some extent upon each person's conditioning. But, I would make the point that rational deduction derived from repeatable experience is not the same as belief. It has a quality that sets it apart from belief. Our rational understanding of existence can be communicated through language and symbols in such a way that others can test and corroborate our experience. This can't be said of belief in quite the same way, which can only be corroborated subjectively. The point that I was trying to make was that some people forgo religious affiliation because their rational understanding of existence, as tested and corroborated, no longer drives them to feel that a religious belief system has value for them or makes sense to them. This process seems distinct from that of a person who lets go of one religious affiliation in preference for another. I believe I agree with you entirely as far as faith-based or religious beliefs are concerned, but disagree entirely that reason can't convince a person that religion has no place in his or her world view. Martin Hello again, Valerie.

This is a very interesting exchange. It is indeed true that beliefs are individual and depend to some extent upon each person’s conditioning. But, I would make the point that rational deduction derived from repeatable experience is not the same as belief. It has a quality that sets it apart from belief. Our rational understanding of existence can be communicated through language and symbols in such a way that others can test and corroborate our experience. This can’t be said of belief in quite the same way, which can only be corroborated subjectively.

The point that I was trying to make was that some people forgo religious affiliation because their rational understanding of existence, as tested and corroborated, no longer drives them to feel that a religious belief system has value for them or makes sense to them. This process seems distinct from that of a person who lets go of one religious affiliation in preference for another.

I believe I agree with you entirely as far as faith-based or religious beliefs are concerned, but disagree entirely that reason can’t convince a person that religion has no place in his or her world view.

Martin

]]> By: Valerie http://rationalphilosophy.net/index.php/main/virgin-births-freethinking-and-adaptation.html#comment-28 Valerie Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:46:30 +0000 http://rationalphilosophy.net/main/virgin-births-freethinking-and-adaptation/#comment-28 Thank you, Martin, for your reply. Is it not true that beliefs are individual, based on each persons conditioning? Many beliefs are introjects, while others are due to personal life experiences and emotional responses to them. Introjects, of course, can be dangerous. However, individual life experiences are just that, individual. This makes each persons beliefs true to them, while not to others. If that is the case, then my choosing Buddhism, and you choosing atheism, are based on introjects and/or conditions. The difficulty lies in the belief that "my beliefs are true, while yours are not." Thus, the many wars in the world. Everybody's belief is true to the individual, as no two individuals have had exactly the same set of conditions in their lives. Thank you, Martin, for your reply. Is it not true that beliefs are individual, based on each persons conditioning? Many beliefs are introjects, while others are due to personal life experiences and emotional responses to them. Introjects, of course, can be dangerous. However, individual life experiences are just that, individual. This makes each persons beliefs true to them, while not to others. If that is the case, then my choosing Buddhism, and you choosing atheism, are based on introjects and/or conditions. The difficulty lies in the belief that “my beliefs are true, while yours are not.” Thus, the many wars in the world. Everybody’s belief is true to the individual, as no two individuals have had exactly the same set of conditions in their lives.

]]> By: Martin Walker http://rationalphilosophy.net/index.php/main/virgin-births-freethinking-and-adaptation.html#comment-27 Martin Walker Tue, 26 Feb 2008 22:33:53 +0000 http://rationalphilosophy.net/main/virgin-births-freethinking-and-adaptation/#comment-27 Hello, Valerie. I like the concept of the evolution of consciousness. You're right that people may well be switching religious affiliation because they have more choices, and because it is more socially acceptable to switch. I imagine that accounts for a good part of the trend. I didn't make it clear in my subjective statement that I was thinking about the finding that the most dramatic switch was from affiliated to non-affiliated. But again, this could be in no small part because it's more socially acceptable to have no religious affiliation. On the other hand, it still seems to me quite rational to think that a more complete secular understanding of existence naturally results in some segment of society dropping its religious beliefs. (I'm one such member of that segment!) Best wishes, Martin Hello, Valerie.

I like the concept of the evolution of consciousness. You’re right that people may well be switching religious affiliation because they have more choices, and because it is more socially acceptable to switch. I imagine that accounts for a good part of the trend.

I didn’t make it clear in my subjective statement that I was thinking about the finding that the most dramatic switch was from affiliated to non-affiliated. But again, this could be in no small part because it’s more socially acceptable to have no religious affiliation.

On the other hand, it still seems to me quite rational to think that a more complete secular understanding of existence naturally results in some segment of society dropping its religious beliefs. (I’m one such member of that segment!)

Best wishes,
Martin

]]> By: Valerie http://rationalphilosophy.net/index.php/main/virgin-births-freethinking-and-adaptation.html#comment-26 Valerie Tue, 26 Feb 2008 02:35:39 +0000 http://rationalphilosophy.net/main/virgin-births-freethinking-and-adaptation/#comment-26 What you are saying here is that the evolution of consciousness has taken a giant leap in the span of 3 generations. In my parent's generation, there weren't many choices as far as religion goes, they were much the same (+ or - a Pope). I am 60 years old and was able to shop around, so to speak, for a religion, as I had been dissatisfied with the lack of options before. I chose Buddhism as it is non-theistic. My question is, is that the evolution of consciousness or is it that there is now opportunity to do so? What you are saying here is that the evolution of consciousness has taken a giant leap in the span of 3 generations. In my parent’s generation, there weren’t many choices as far as religion goes, they were much the same (+ or - a Pope). I am 60 years old and was able to shop around, so to speak, for a religion, as I had been dissatisfied with the lack of options before. I chose Buddhism as it is non-theistic. My question is, is that the evolution of consciousness or is it that there is now opportunity to do so?

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